Dr
William Folorunso Kumuyi speaks about his background, how the Deeper
Life Bible Church came into being, and what the future holds for the
entire ministry. "There are no theatrics in our Church," he says,
"because from my background, I don't like anything that is turned into a
show or drama. Some pastors like the drama rather than the results. I
want the results rather than the drama. I have also looked at the
ministry of Jesus Christ, and I want as much as possible to follow the
life and ministry of Jesus Christ. So in the relationship and
interaction with people, and the life I live, I want it to be the life
of Christ. I want the Jesus type of ministry. I don't want anything
fake."
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We
know that you come from a mathematics and science background, and you
were once a math's lecturer at the University of Lagos . You, in fact,
gave up your job in 1983 to concentrate on the Church. We also know that
you were born in 1941. But many people don't know where you were born.
Which part of Nigeria do you come from?
Nigeria is divided into 36 states, and one of them - in the southwest - is called Osun State . And in Osun State , there is a major town called Ilesha . A few kilometres from Ilesha is Erin Ijesha. That is where I was born on 6 June 1941.
Nigeria is divided into 36 states, and one of them - in the southwest - is called Osun State . And in Osun State , there is a major town called Ilesha . A few kilometres from Ilesha is Erin Ijesha. That is where I was born on 6 June 1941.
Who, and what, were your parents?
My father was called Gabriel Kumuyi Akinfenwa. Kumuyi was his real name and Akinfenwa was his family name. But when he sent me to school, he used Kumuyi as my surname. My mother was called Comfort Kumuyi. They are both dead now. My father died as far back as 1967, the year I completed my first degree at the University of Ibadan . My mother died in the 1990s at the age of 85 or thereabouts.
My father was called Gabriel Kumuyi Akinfenwa. Kumuyi was his real name and Akinfenwa was his family name. But when he sent me to school, he used Kumuyi as my surname. My mother was called Comfort Kumuyi. They are both dead now. My father died as far back as 1967, the year I completed my first degree at the University of Ibadan . My mother died in the 1990s at the age of 85 or thereabouts.
African names have meanings. What does Kumuyi mean?
The full name is Ikumuyiwa, which means ‘death brought this". After I became a Christian, I realised it was the death of Christ that has brought us salvation, and also the redemption and reconciliation we have with God. So, for me, the name, Ikumuyiwa, is very significant - death has brought something good. The death of Christ has brought us the grace and goodness of God, and the relationship we have now with the Lord.
Even your name is tied to your work?
Yes. By the way, my first name, William, means "defender of the faith", and my middle name, Folorunso, puts me in the hands of God, it means "God watches over this one". And when you think of the gospel being really death of Christ bringing redemption, it means that death has brought us blessings. And now, by my first name William, I am a "defender the faith. And while I am defending the faith, which means the death of Christ has brought us blessings or redemption, God will keep watching over me.
The full name is Ikumuyiwa, which means ‘death brought this". After I became a Christian, I realised it was the death of Christ that has brought us salvation, and also the redemption and reconciliation we have with God. So, for me, the name, Ikumuyiwa, is very significant - death has brought something good. The death of Christ has brought us the grace and goodness of God, and the relationship we have now with the Lord.
Even your name is tied to your work?
Yes. By the way, my first name, William, means "defender of the faith", and my middle name, Folorunso, puts me in the hands of God, it means "God watches over this one". And when you think of the gospel being really death of Christ bringing redemption, it means that death has brought us blessings. And now, by my first name William, I am a "defender the faith. And while I am defending the faith, which means the death of Christ has brought us blessings or redemption, God will keep watching over me.
It looks like there is some destiny in all this?
I think so. I began to notice it myself when I became a born-again Christian. My father was an Anglican, and one of their normal practices was infant baptism. But I wasn't too young when I was baptised and given a Christian name. Before the event, I had arranged with my father that my Christian name would be Johnson, because there was a man by that name in our community whom I admired - the way he carried himself, his lifestyle and everything. So I wanted to have his name.
I think so. I began to notice it myself when I became a born-again Christian. My father was an Anglican, and one of their normal practices was infant baptism. But I wasn't too young when I was baptised and given a Christian name. Before the event, I had arranged with my father that my Christian name would be Johnson, because there was a man by that name in our community whom I admired - the way he carried himself, his lifestyle and everything. So I wanted to have his name.
My father
agreed with the priest that my name would be Johnson. But when we got
there, just at the very moment that I was to be baptised, they changed
their mind and gave me the name, William. I didn't like it at the time.
It was much later that an American evangelist, preaching in Singapore ,
asked me: "You are William?" I said "Yes". "Do you know the meaning of
William?". I said "No". He said: "It means the defender of the faith."
It was then that I saw the destiny and the way the Lord had orchestrated
everything.
How many siblings do you have?
I have two siblings - a sister who is three years younger than I am, and a brother who is far much younger, 18 or 19 years younger than I am. Both of them are in Nigeria . My sister lives in Ondo State . A born-again Christian, she attends Deeper Life. My brother lives in Os un State, and he is also in the Church. Both of them are following the Lord.
I have two siblings - a sister who is three years younger than I am, and a brother who is far much younger, 18 or 19 years younger than I am. Both of them are in Nigeria . My sister lives in Ondo State . A born-again Christian, she attends Deeper Life. My brother lives in Os un State, and he is also in the Church. Both of them are following the Lord.
That is
very encouraging, considering that in the Bible, Jesus talks about the
prophet not being held in honour in his own home. But your is the
opposite.
Yes, the Lord just worked it so. And it is not only in my own little home. In Os un State where I come from, I once held a crusade and conference in the state capital, Oshogbo . The people came in their thousands. And there were miracles, many miracles! The people and the state governor really welcomed me to the home state. It was a great homecoming.
Yes, the Lord just worked it so. And it is not only in my own little home. In Os un State where I come from, I once held a crusade and conference in the state capital, Oshogbo . The people came in their thousands. And there were miracles, many miracles! The people and the state governor really welcomed me to the home state. It was a great homecoming.
You
have two children of your own. Your wife is an integral part of the
Church, in fact she is the head of the Women's Ministry. Will your
children follow your footsteps into the ministry?
By the grace of God, they became born-again Christians when they were in secondary school here in Nigeria . The first one, Jeremiah, is 24, the second one, John, is 21. Both are now university students in New York , USA . But when they were in Nigeria , they were in the music ministry of the Youth Section of the Church. Jeremiah is studying computer science and John is studying information systems. Both are also involved in the Church in New York, and are making good progress.
By the grace of God, they became born-again Christians when they were in secondary school here in Nigeria . The first one, Jeremiah, is 24, the second one, John, is 21. Both are now university students in New York , USA . But when they were in Nigeria , they were in the music ministry of the Youth Section of the Church. Jeremiah is studying computer science and John is studying information systems. Both are also involved in the Church in New York, and are making good progress.
So why can't we call your wife and the other women leaders' pastors like we call the men?
Because we reserve the title pastor for people who are in charge of the whole local Church, whereas a woman would be in charge of only the women's section within that Church, which is not the whole Church. |
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You were brought up as an Anglican yourself. Do you remember those days?
Yes, my father was a militant religious person when we were very young. He would wake up in the morning, at about 5.30am, and gather us as a family. We would read the Bible and pray. Basically we knew that the Bible was very important as the word of God. But I didn't have an experiential knowledge of who Christ was, and what Christ could do in our lives in bringing a change morally. We just went to Church as a regular thing in the family, but I didn't have the experience of an intimate relationship with the Lord. My father was very strict, he wouldn't go this way or do that thing because of his religious background.
Yes, my father was a militant religious person when we were very young. He would wake up in the morning, at about 5.30am, and gather us as a family. We would read the Bible and pray. Basically we knew that the Bible was very important as the word of God. But I didn't have an experiential knowledge of who Christ was, and what Christ could do in our lives in bringing a change morally. We just went to Church as a regular thing in the family, but I didn't have the experience of an intimate relationship with the Lord. My father was very strict, he wouldn't go this way or do that thing because of his religious background.
So you went to Church every Sunday?
It was compulsory. We had to. And of course I loved it.
It was compulsory. We had to. And of course I loved it.
I
remember when we were at school in Ghana , you had to go to Church every
Sunday, it was a must, or on Monday morning you were whipped by the
head teacher for not going to Church. Did it happen during your school
days in Nigeria ?
No, because in primary school, I was going from home and our parents took us to Church every Sunday. So there was no problem. It so happened that when I went to secondary school, the principal and the proprietor of the school was an atheist and he didn't buy into going to Church.
No, because in primary school, I was going from home and our parents took us to Church every Sunday. So there was no problem. It so happened that when I went to secondary school, the principal and the proprietor of the school was an atheist and he didn't buy into going to Church.
In fact, those
who wanted to go to Church had to have a Church service within the
school premises. He allowed us to do it, but it meant we students had to
handle it ourselves. But really he was teaching us at every morning
assembly and community gatherings that there was no God and whatever you
did in life, you had to do it by yourself. But, because of my religious
background, I didn't accept that atheistic philosophy although there
was a time of confusion. Eventually I came out of that period and really
came to know the Lord experientially.
Was he a Nigerian or European?
A Nigerian.
A Nigerian.
A Nigerian?
Yes, but he was trained overseas and he came to establish the school here. He was really a militant atheist.
Yes, but he was trained overseas and he came to establish the school here. He was really a militant atheist.
Which school was this?
Mayflower School at Ikenne, near Ibadan . The principal was called Dr Tai Solarin. He was a social critic and quite a militant atheist.
Mayflower School at Ikenne, near Ibadan . The principal was called Dr Tai Solarin. He was a social critic and quite a militant atheist.
Is he still alive?
No, he died in the early 1990s.
No, he died in the early 1990s.
Eventually you left the Anglican Church for the Apostolic Church . What made you switch?
I was teaching in Mayflower School, my alma mater. I completed my secondary school education in 1961, and started teaching mathematics at Mayflower in 1962. It was there that I was introduced to the Apostolic Faith, not Apostolic Church, and really heard about the change that Christ could make to our lives when we turned from our sins and believed in him and how he died for us on the cross of Calvary. It was there that I had the salvation experience and things really turned up for me.
I was teaching in Mayflower School, my alma mater. I completed my secondary school education in 1961, and started teaching mathematics at Mayflower in 1962. It was there that I was introduced to the Apostolic Faith, not Apostolic Church, and really heard about the change that Christ could make to our lives when we turned from our sins and believed in him and how he died for us on the cross of Calvary. It was there that I had the salvation experience and things really turned up for me.
If you were asked to talk about two landmark events in your boyhood that influenced your adult life, what would you say?
I remember that in 1952, when I was in Standard Two in primary school, we took an exam. In those days for you to move from Standard Two to Standard Three, you had to pass an exam or you dropped out for any vocation training that caught your fancy - carpentry, tailoring, whatever. I remember studying in the moonlight, and watching the moon drift across the sky. I said, "God, I know you are there. I want to know whether I will pass this exam or not." Then I took a piece of broken pot, and I looked at this side and that side, and said, "God, if I am going to pass, let this side come up. If I am going to fail, let this other side come up". I tossed it and the right side came up. I said, "OK, I am going to pass".
I remember that in 1952, when I was in Standard Two in primary school, we took an exam. In those days for you to move from Standard Two to Standard Three, you had to pass an exam or you dropped out for any vocation training that caught your fancy - carpentry, tailoring, whatever. I remember studying in the moonlight, and watching the moon drift across the sky. I said, "God, I know you are there. I want to know whether I will pass this exam or not." Then I took a piece of broken pot, and I looked at this side and that side, and said, "God, if I am going to pass, let this side come up. If I am going to fail, let this other side come up". I tossed it and the right side came up. I said, "OK, I am going to pass".
And I really
had confidence that God was alive and that he had answered my prayers
and I was going to pass the exam. I never forgot it, because later in
life, it helped me greatly. Even though I was young, I was just about 11
years old at the time, and yet for me it was a definite thing, that God
was alive, and that when you got into trouble or had any problem, He
would help you.
Then, when I
went to secondary school, another event rook place that to date is
indelible in my mind. There was a busy road near the Mayflower School
which we had to cross to draw water from a river on the other side of
the road. We didn't have pipe-borne water at the school in those days. I
was going to the riverside one day to draw water and a car was coming
down the road at top speed. At the time I didn't know Christ as my
Saviour, I wasn't born-again.
When I was
crossing the road, I didn't look in both ways. The car just missed me, I
could have died. Even though at that time I didn't have the
experiential knowledge of God that I had later, the moment that the car
passed and people began shouting, I thanked God, and because my middle
name Folorunso meant "God watches over this one", I said: "God, I know
that I am here in this life for a purpose. I am going to serve you." I
didn't know the meaning of it at the time. I now know that God preserved
my life for a particular purpose. Those two events have never left me.
You
obtained a first class degree in mathematics at the University of
Ibadan, and taught for some time, as you said, at the Mayflower School
at Ikenne near Ibadan, before going to do a postgraduate course in
education at the University of Lagos, after which you decided to teach
mathematics at the same university. Did you enjoy teaching mathematics?
Yes. Again, the way it happened? I went to the University of Lagos to do a postgraduate diploma in education, and it was Dr Tai Solarin, the principal of Mayflower, who sponsored and paid for me to do the course.
Yes. Again, the way it happened? I went to the University of Lagos to do a postgraduate diploma in education, and it was Dr Tai Solarin, the principal of Mayflower, who sponsored and paid for me to do the course.
The one who didn't believe in God?
Yes, but by this time I had become born again and things had changed. One night, I went to an open field, a lawn tennis field, to pray. And all of a sudden, it just occurred to me that I should not go back to Mayflower School after my postgraduate work, but that I should look for a teaching appointment at the University of Lagos ' College of Education . It was so clear and definite that God wanted me to do it.
Yes, but by this time I had become born again and things had changed. One night, I went to an open field, a lawn tennis field, to pray. And all of a sudden, it just occurred to me that I should not go back to Mayflower School after my postgraduate work, but that I should look for a teaching appointment at the University of Lagos ' College of Education . It was so clear and definite that God wanted me to do it.
So the
following day, I went to the provost's office, but unknown to me, the
head of the Department of Mathematics had gone to the same office to
tell the provost that they were short of teaching staff and that they
needed a mathematics lecturer urgently. As he was coming out of the
provost's office, I was going in. On seeing me, the provost said: "Young
man, what can I do for you?" I said: "I have come to tell you that when
I finish my postgraduate work, I would like to teach mathematics here."
He said: "Very good." But there was a problem. Mayflower was paying for
me to do the course. The provost said: "Don't worry. We will pay
Mayflower the money back."
Then when I saw
the head of the Department of Mathematics, he said: "I saw you go into
the provost's office. What did you go to do?" I said: "I went to tell
him that I want to teach mathematics here after my postgraduate work."
He said: "What, I had just gone in to tell him that we needed a
mathematics lecturer." I said: ''The provost and I have settled it."
That is how I became a mathematics lecturer at the University of Lagos .
And did you enjoy your teaching mathematics?
I relished it.
I relished it.
What
would you say accounted for the quick success of the IS-member Bible
Study Group that you set up in 1973 in your flat at the University of
Lagos which eventually led to the formation of the Deeper Life Bible
Church ?
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Did your students give you hard time?
No, never, because in those days when I taught, I really taught, I put my whole heart into it. When I was teaching in secondary school, the way God helped me to teach, if I didn't have 100% of my students passing the exams, I had 95% or 98%. And a lot of them got distinctions. So when I came to the University of Lagos and I taught, the external examiners had no problem with my work. I really enjoyed my days teaching at the University.
No, never, because in those days when I taught, I really taught, I put my whole heart into it. When I was teaching in secondary school, the way God helped me to teach, if I didn't have 100% of my students passing the exams, I had 95% or 98%. And a lot of them got distinctions. So when I came to the University of Lagos and I taught, the external examiners had no problem with my work. I really enjoyed my days teaching at the University.
You became a born-again Christian at the age of 23, on S April 1964. Do you still remember what happened?
Yes, a preacher was preaching a simple message, and because I had become almost like a moralist in the sense that I protected my name and personality, when that preacher preached, I saw that it was not just our actions that made us unacceptable to God, even our wrong thoughts and wrong plans or planning our lives as if God didn't exist, also made us unacceptable. I then realised that I needed God. And when the preacher made an altar call, he pointedly said if "anybody needed Christ to fill the void in their lives, such people should come forward", I felt drawn to what he was saying. I went forward, knelt down and prayed. In fact, it was such an important day for me that I still remember it to this day, even where I knelt, how it all happened, and the peace and joy that came to my heart, that now I was reconciled with God through Jesus Christ. It was very definite.
Yes, a preacher was preaching a simple message, and because I had become almost like a moralist in the sense that I protected my name and personality, when that preacher preached, I saw that it was not just our actions that made us unacceptable to God, even our wrong thoughts and wrong plans or planning our lives as if God didn't exist, also made us unacceptable. I then realised that I needed God. And when the preacher made an altar call, he pointedly said if "anybody needed Christ to fill the void in their lives, such people should come forward", I felt drawn to what he was saying. I went forward, knelt down and prayed. In fact, it was such an important day for me that I still remember it to this day, even where I knelt, how it all happened, and the peace and joy that came to my heart, that now I was reconciled with God through Jesus Christ. It was very definite.
Was it in Lagos ?
No, it was in Ijebu-Ode in Ogun State , about one-and-a half hours drive from Lagos .
No, it was in Ijebu-Ode in Ogun State , about one-and-a half hours drive from Lagos .
Was it at a Church service or crusade?
It was at a Church service.
It was at a Church service.
What
would you say accounted for the quick success of the IS-member Bible
Study Group that you set up in 1973 in your flat at the University of
Lagos which eventually led to the formation of the Deeper Life Bible
Church ?
The style of teaching was a very important factor, at the time it was new to a lot of people - to go systematically from verse to verse and pinpoint practical lessons applied to their lives, and their lives were really changing - people became born again, their lives were transformed, families got better united. And members of the group began to spread the message of how they enjoyed studying the Bible. Through this voluntary spiritual salesmanship, a lot more people came to the Bible studies.
The style of teaching was a very important factor, at the time it was new to a lot of people - to go systematically from verse to verse and pinpoint practical lessons applied to their lives, and their lives were really changing - people became born again, their lives were transformed, families got better united. And members of the group began to spread the message of how they enjoyed studying the Bible. Through this voluntary spiritual salesmanship, a lot more people came to the Bible studies.
We also started
sending out Christian articles, we called them "Deeper Christian Life
Articles". Those who received them re-sent them to their friends, and so
the message spread, and more people came.
Why did you call it Deeper Life?
Actually it came from the people. When they received the articles, they came to the Bible studies and said: "We've been Christians before, but this one is deeper than what we used to know." So they used the name Deeper Life. We also knew that we were leading them to deeper relations with God; that is how those articles became Deeper Christian Life Articles. Then as we continued with the Bible studies, the group became known as the Deeper Christian Life Ministry. And when it became a Church in 1983, we called it the Deeper Life Bible Church
Actually it came from the people. When they received the articles, they came to the Bible studies and said: "We've been Christians before, but this one is deeper than what we used to know." So they used the name Deeper Life. We also knew that we were leading them to deeper relations with God; that is how those articles became Deeper Christian Life Articles. Then as we continued with the Bible studies, the group became known as the Deeper Christian Life Ministry. And when it became a Church in 1983, we called it the Deeper Life Bible Church
Are you saying the name, Deeper Life, didn't come from you?
Well, yes and no. We called the articles we sent oUt "Deeper Life Articles". The people themselves were saying those articles were deepening their Christian lives. So the name came from both sides.
Well, yes and no. We called the articles we sent oUt "Deeper Life Articles". The people themselves were saying those articles were deepening their Christian lives. So the name came from both sides.
Having
followed you for four weeks now - from Britain to Togo, Sierra Leone and
Nigeria - I can say you have a special gift for humility, and I am not
flattering you or being subservient. Your humility has permeated the
Church and has ensured that you have remained a pastor (or at most,
General Superintendent) for 33 years while your colleagues in other
CChurches who start at the level of prophet, not pastor, have gone on to
become apostles and bishops. This humility, I think, has helped to
strengthen Deeper Life and given it its distinguishing mark. Do you see
it that way?
Well, I see it that way because the Lord Jesus himself said those who humbled themselves would be exalted by God and those who exalted themselves would be debased. As Christ so humbled himself and God highly exalted him, we believe that if we were real Christians, we would do the same. That is why, by the grace of God, we keep the kind of low profile and humility you describe, although we don't think about it until people point it out, because once you begin to make noise that you are humble, you are no longer humble.
Well, I see it that way because the Lord Jesus himself said those who humbled themselves would be exalted by God and those who exalted themselves would be debased. As Christ so humbled himself and God highly exalted him, we believe that if we were real Christians, we would do the same. That is why, by the grace of God, we keep the kind of low profile and humility you describe, although we don't think about it until people point it out, because once you begin to make noise that you are humble, you are no longer humble.
Today,
the Church has over one million members in 60 countries worldwide. What
do you think has accounted for this phenomenal growth?
First and foremost, I think it is the teaching, we teach the Bible in such a way that practical problems are solved - family problems, professional challenges, and also how people should be outward looking. For example, part of the teaching is motivational, to let our members know that they have potentials, that they can achieve, that they can depend on God. We develop the faith of the people and because of that, they value themselves. We don't have the idea of "I am the never-do-well person". No. We are humble, yes; but in the Lord we can be who he says we can be.
First and foremost, I think it is the teaching, we teach the Bible in such a way that practical problems are solved - family problems, professional challenges, and also how people should be outward looking. For example, part of the teaching is motivational, to let our members know that they have potentials, that they can achieve, that they can depend on God. We develop the faith of the people and because of that, they value themselves. We don't have the idea of "I am the never-do-well person". No. We are humble, yes; but in the Lord we can be who he says we can be.
Also when they
get sick, we pray and they get healed. This manifestation of the power
of God coupled with the other things have contributed to the growth of
the Church. We also have a proper organisation and administration. We
have, for example, the Children's Section, the Youth Section, the Campus
Fellowship, the Women's Section, Professionals and all that. We also
organise many programmes that actually make people to know God and
eventually become part of the Church.
In his book, Deeper Life, published in 1990, the British religious author, Alan Isaacson, writes that you once went to see the Anglican Archbishop of Nigeria, the Most Rev. Joseph Adetiloye who told you: "It is easy to start a Church in Nigeria - all that you need is a Bible and a hand bell and the people will flock to you." Do you remember the visit?
I don't remember. I think it was Isaacson himself who went to see the archbishop. That is what I can recollect.
Isaacson also quotes the Bishop of Aba, the Rt-Rev Dr Iwuagwu, who told him in 1988: "The psychology of the African makes them to put their full weight into whatever they do - they want emotional depth, they like to 'dance religion', to experience it and feel it. They also expect religion to solve every problem, even things they should be able to do for themselves." Do you agree?
Well, in talking about what people want and what they say, yes I agree. Take the average African, whether he is a Christian or not, the things he can do for himself, he pushes them on God. If he is in business, he ought to think, he ought to plan, he ought to set goals and know how to achieve them. He ought to know the resources he has already – the money, the brain, the might to think. He should then look at other people who have done that kind of business before and see where they succeeded and why, and where they failed and why.
This will help him to follow their good examples and also avoid the pitfalls. But no. Instead of doing that, he pushes everything on God. If the business fails, that is his destiny. If it succeeds, he won't examine what steps led to the success to enable him pass them on to other people, God did it! Yes, God did it, but He has given us alternatives. So what the Bishop of Aba was saying was that the average Mrican would shift everything onto God, expect God to do everything for them. But it doesn't normally happen that way.
Still talking about the Church, contrary to what we see today where anybody who can read the Bible thinks they are qualified to start a Church, you resisted early pressure to establish your Church, even after 45,000 people had attended your retreat in 1981. Why did you drag your feet?
Because I needed a clear call from the Lord before doing what other people were urging us to do. You see, it is not just that you are able to do something. There were a lot of things we were capable of doing, but we needed to wait on the Lord to see what was fit for us to do. You get more satisfaction and fulfillment when you wait on the Lord. That was the reason why I had to get a very definite directive from Him as to what to do. And, of course, what we see today actually justify the waiting.
Deeper Life is a Bible Church. What do you mean by Bible Church?
A "Church" by definition is an assembly of those who are really born again by the sacrificial atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. That is a Church. So we don't regard anybody as a "member" of the Church who doesn't have that experience of being born again. It is a "Bible Church" because it is a group of people who are born again and who believe in the Bible in its totality.
Yes, it is a "life" Bible Church because we are not just teaching the Bible theoretically, we are applying it to our everyday, practical lives. It means that every teaching, whatever the doctrine, we have to centre it on the "life" we live. That is why we call it Deeper Life Bible Church . We want to go indepth so that the word "deeper" will be emphasised in our lives. Anybody seeing us would say: "Yes, there are Christians, but these people seem to have a deeper conviction of what they believe in and what they do."
In those early days when you started the Bible Study Group, and even when you started the Church, did you know that you had the healing and deliverance?
No, I didn't know. But long before we started the Bible Study Group, I believed that God could do anything. He created the whole universe out of nothing, and He says "I am God, I change not".
So from my scientific background when I put that together logically, He created the world out of nothing and He has not changed, and Jesus has not changed, He still has the same power to do what He used to do before. All that remains is for me to know God intimately enough to make him operate through my life so that I can do what He wants me to do.
Jesus healed the sick, and people are still sick today, so I knew that God could still heal today. But for me to get into the healing ministry, I went into the Bible and really learned from it. I also studied other ministers in the healing ministry and prayed until the Lord began to manifest it in my life.
So when exactly did you notice these manifestations?
Some definite healing took place before February 1983 when I was teaching about what God could do. People would pray and get healed. But on one Sunday morning in February 1983, there was somebody in the congregation who had had serious demonic attacks for 18 years. I was praying at the time in the headquarters Church at Gbagada. I did not plan it ahead of time, but I found myself saying: "If you have had a demonic attack, I pray for you in the name of Jesus, that demonic personality should come out of you."
The Lord opened the eyes of that individual and she saw the demonic personality come out of her and go away. Just at that very time, I was also saying "thank God, that is done. It is gone now". As I was describing it, she was seeing the whole thing demonstrated and she became totally free for the first time in 18 years.
So after the service, she came to me and said she was the one I prayed for and this happened to her. It was that which gave me the confirmation that the Lord had now given me the gift of healing and deliverance. Things began to happen after that.
Then in December 1985, we had a crusade at the National Stadium in Surulere, Lagos . It was the first crusade that really brought out the gift of healing and deliverance. The blind had their eyes opened. A boy who had no bone in one of his legs, had his bone re-created by God there and then. Another boy had a rotten hip, they brought him there and while we prayed God repaired everything there and then. And many other things happened! Since then, the healing ministry has grown by leaps and bounds.
In his book, Deeper Life, published in 1990, the British religious author, Alan Isaacson, writes that you once went to see the Anglican Archbishop of Nigeria, the Most Rev. Joseph Adetiloye who told you: "It is easy to start a Church in Nigeria - all that you need is a Bible and a hand bell and the people will flock to you." Do you remember the visit?
I don't remember. I think it was Isaacson himself who went to see the archbishop. That is what I can recollect.
Isaacson also quotes the Bishop of Aba, the Rt-Rev Dr Iwuagwu, who told him in 1988: "The psychology of the African makes them to put their full weight into whatever they do - they want emotional depth, they like to 'dance religion', to experience it and feel it. They also expect religion to solve every problem, even things they should be able to do for themselves." Do you agree?
Well, in talking about what people want and what they say, yes I agree. Take the average African, whether he is a Christian or not, the things he can do for himself, he pushes them on God. If he is in business, he ought to think, he ought to plan, he ought to set goals and know how to achieve them. He ought to know the resources he has already – the money, the brain, the might to think. He should then look at other people who have done that kind of business before and see where they succeeded and why, and where they failed and why.
This will help him to follow their good examples and also avoid the pitfalls. But no. Instead of doing that, he pushes everything on God. If the business fails, that is his destiny. If it succeeds, he won't examine what steps led to the success to enable him pass them on to other people, God did it! Yes, God did it, but He has given us alternatives. So what the Bishop of Aba was saying was that the average Mrican would shift everything onto God, expect God to do everything for them. But it doesn't normally happen that way.
Still talking about the Church, contrary to what we see today where anybody who can read the Bible thinks they are qualified to start a Church, you resisted early pressure to establish your Church, even after 45,000 people had attended your retreat in 1981. Why did you drag your feet?
Because I needed a clear call from the Lord before doing what other people were urging us to do. You see, it is not just that you are able to do something. There were a lot of things we were capable of doing, but we needed to wait on the Lord to see what was fit for us to do. You get more satisfaction and fulfillment when you wait on the Lord. That was the reason why I had to get a very definite directive from Him as to what to do. And, of course, what we see today actually justify the waiting.
Deeper Life is a Bible Church. What do you mean by Bible Church?
A "Church" by definition is an assembly of those who are really born again by the sacrificial atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. That is a Church. So we don't regard anybody as a "member" of the Church who doesn't have that experience of being born again. It is a "Bible Church" because it is a group of people who are born again and who believe in the Bible in its totality.
Yes, it is a "life" Bible Church because we are not just teaching the Bible theoretically, we are applying it to our everyday, practical lives. It means that every teaching, whatever the doctrine, we have to centre it on the "life" we live. That is why we call it Deeper Life Bible Church . We want to go indepth so that the word "deeper" will be emphasised in our lives. Anybody seeing us would say: "Yes, there are Christians, but these people seem to have a deeper conviction of what they believe in and what they do."
In those early days when you started the Bible Study Group, and even when you started the Church, did you know that you had the healing and deliverance?
No, I didn't know. But long before we started the Bible Study Group, I believed that God could do anything. He created the whole universe out of nothing, and He says "I am God, I change not".
So from my scientific background when I put that together logically, He created the world out of nothing and He has not changed, and Jesus has not changed, He still has the same power to do what He used to do before. All that remains is for me to know God intimately enough to make him operate through my life so that I can do what He wants me to do.
Jesus healed the sick, and people are still sick today, so I knew that God could still heal today. But for me to get into the healing ministry, I went into the Bible and really learned from it. I also studied other ministers in the healing ministry and prayed until the Lord began to manifest it in my life.
So when exactly did you notice these manifestations?
Some definite healing took place before February 1983 when I was teaching about what God could do. People would pray and get healed. But on one Sunday morning in February 1983, there was somebody in the congregation who had had serious demonic attacks for 18 years. I was praying at the time in the headquarters Church at Gbagada. I did not plan it ahead of time, but I found myself saying: "If you have had a demonic attack, I pray for you in the name of Jesus, that demonic personality should come out of you."
The Lord opened the eyes of that individual and she saw the demonic personality come out of her and go away. Just at that very time, I was also saying "thank God, that is done. It is gone now". As I was describing it, she was seeing the whole thing demonstrated and she became totally free for the first time in 18 years.
So after the service, she came to me and said she was the one I prayed for and this happened to her. It was that which gave me the confirmation that the Lord had now given me the gift of healing and deliverance. Things began to happen after that.
Then in December 1985, we had a crusade at the National Stadium in Surulere, Lagos . It was the first crusade that really brought out the gift of healing and deliverance. The blind had their eyes opened. A boy who had no bone in one of his legs, had his bone re-created by God there and then. Another boy had a rotten hip, they brought him there and while we prayed God repaired everything there and then. And many other things happened! Since then, the healing ministry has grown by leaps and bounds.
 |
What I
find amazing, as somebody seeing it for the first time, is that some
other pastors would lay their hands on people and shake them till they
fall down and roll about. But you don't do that. You just stand at the
podium and pray a: simple prayer, a normal prayer, no theatrics, and
people get healed. Like the Doubting Thomas of the Bible, I wouldn't
have believed it if I had not been there in Lome and Freetown to see it
for myself. And these people are not even members of your Church!
There are no theatrics in our Church, because, from my background, I don't like anything that is turned into a show or drama. Some pastors like the drama rather than the results. I want the results rather than the drama. I have also looked at the ministry of Jesus Christ, and I want as much as possible to follow the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. So in my relationship and interaction with people, and the life I live, I want it to be the life of Christ.
And from the Bible, I have seen that Jesus spoke the word and people were healed. So in the earlier years, I prayed: "Lord, I want this kind of ministry, the Jesus type. I don't want anything fake. I am not building up myself or exalting myself What would Christ do if he were here?" I will keep praying for the people and trust the Lord to deliver the results.
In the late 1980s, you used to pray over handkerchiefs for healing purses. Has it stopped?
Really the praying over handkerchiefs started without us planning it. I went to Aba in Abia State , Nigeria , to hold a revival meeting in the 1980s. A nurse came from the hospital in Aba and saw the miracles that were taking place at the meeting. She had a patient in the hospital who she was concerned about. Because she could not bring the patient to the meeting, she decided to bring a handkerchief instead. She believed that if we prayed over it, she would take it back to him and he would be healed. It was the nurse who started it all.
So we prayed over the handkerchief and she took it back to the patient. She laid it over him and he was healed instantaneously. When people heard about it, they started sending us handkerchiefs to pray over. The nurse had started a revolution. We didn't tell her to do it, she did it by herself, and when people saw the results, it became a practice.
And then, when we went into the Bible and found in the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 19: 1112, it says: 'And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul [verse 12}. So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchief or apron, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. " So we saw that once you don't turn it into a fetish where people deliberately bring handkerchiefs, it is not a bad thing. We don't normally do it during our services, but it still happens. By the grace of God, a lot of things have happened.
For example, apart from handkerchiefs, one day we had finished the service at the headquarters Church at Gbagada, and one boy had been sent away from school because he was so dull. The teachers felt he was totally useless. He couldn't be taught! His father came and said he wanted the boy to shake my hand. The man had four sons, so this one came and shook my hand, and the father said I would come back and give a testimony.
He took his son back to the school, and at the end of that term, the boy who couldn't be taught came third in the terminal exams. The Lord just changed everything. Many things have happened impromptu like that, without us planning it. Either people will shake my hand or sit on my seat, and they will get their desired results, be it healing or whatever. It all depends on their faith. But I don't deliberately go out looking for that kind of experience.
Did you win more souls for God and the Church because of the miracles?
I would say yes. From the December 1985 meeting, that month alone, we had over 26,000 people giving their lives to the Lord. Of the 26,000, quite a large number joined Deeper Life. Others went to other CChurches.
Alan Isaacson writes in his book that your "style of worshipping is probably more Westernized than the average independent Church". Is that right?
I would think so, because you don't find too much emotionalism in our services.
Isaacson also says that ''you are most influenced by Western Evangelical! Pentecostal holiness tradition and perhaps too careful of being too African in worship and practice". What do you say?
Yes, that is true, but though we have been influenced by the Western approach, when you go into the Bible, you don't find too much of the emotionalism and the other things common with the African CChurches. At Deeper Life, we tend to look at the word of God to learn how to worship, how to sing, and the purpose of what we are doing?
Apart from the emotionalism, is there anything in the African CChurches' way of worship that does not appeal to you?
You see, as a mathematician, I prefer a situation where if you are talking to me, I can reason, where I can sit back and say "that's logical, that's right". But when you are really hyper-emotional, you don't think about the contents of what you are receiving, and you can easily be deceived, you can even be led into hypnotism if you are not careful. Once emotion is too heavy, the people don't reason or think about what they do. But, as you have seen in our Church, the way we preach, you can reason through everything and it is not easy to deceive people because of that logical sequence of what we are doing.
Isaacson again writes that when he attended Deeper Life services in 1988, he found "the music was fairly Western in style... the music was good but not very African", he says. Over the past four weeks, I have observed the same thing. What is the rationale behind it? Why don't we see real African gospel music during your services?
Well, we have different types of music. At our Sunday Worship Service, we have a style of music which you and Isaacson would term "Western". At our crusades and other meetings, we have another style which, again you and Isaacson would call "African". Even at the Monday Bible Study, there is clapping of hands and Mricantype music. So it depends on the type of service.
Isaacson also says that in the early days of the Church, you were "anxious to see uniformity of teaching throughout Deeper Life". How far has this succeeded?
By and large, I would think yes, we have succeeded in achieving uniformity of teaching across the Church. Our Monday Bible Study also unites us and solidifies the teaching. The Monday Bible study is very important to the work we are doing, because it is transmitted live allover the world, by satellite and internet.
There are no theatrics in our Church, because, from my background, I don't like anything that is turned into a show or drama. Some pastors like the drama rather than the results. I want the results rather than the drama. I have also looked at the ministry of Jesus Christ, and I want as much as possible to follow the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. So in my relationship and interaction with people, and the life I live, I want it to be the life of Christ.
And from the Bible, I have seen that Jesus spoke the word and people were healed. So in the earlier years, I prayed: "Lord, I want this kind of ministry, the Jesus type. I don't want anything fake. I am not building up myself or exalting myself What would Christ do if he were here?" I will keep praying for the people and trust the Lord to deliver the results.
In the late 1980s, you used to pray over handkerchiefs for healing purses. Has it stopped?
Really the praying over handkerchiefs started without us planning it. I went to Aba in Abia State , Nigeria , to hold a revival meeting in the 1980s. A nurse came from the hospital in Aba and saw the miracles that were taking place at the meeting. She had a patient in the hospital who she was concerned about. Because she could not bring the patient to the meeting, she decided to bring a handkerchief instead. She believed that if we prayed over it, she would take it back to him and he would be healed. It was the nurse who started it all.
So we prayed over the handkerchief and she took it back to the patient. She laid it over him and he was healed instantaneously. When people heard about it, they started sending us handkerchiefs to pray over. The nurse had started a revolution. We didn't tell her to do it, she did it by herself, and when people saw the results, it became a practice.
And then, when we went into the Bible and found in the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 19: 1112, it says: 'And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul [verse 12}. So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchief or apron, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. " So we saw that once you don't turn it into a fetish where people deliberately bring handkerchiefs, it is not a bad thing. We don't normally do it during our services, but it still happens. By the grace of God, a lot of things have happened.
For example, apart from handkerchiefs, one day we had finished the service at the headquarters Church at Gbagada, and one boy had been sent away from school because he was so dull. The teachers felt he was totally useless. He couldn't be taught! His father came and said he wanted the boy to shake my hand. The man had four sons, so this one came and shook my hand, and the father said I would come back and give a testimony.
He took his son back to the school, and at the end of that term, the boy who couldn't be taught came third in the terminal exams. The Lord just changed everything. Many things have happened impromptu like that, without us planning it. Either people will shake my hand or sit on my seat, and they will get their desired results, be it healing or whatever. It all depends on their faith. But I don't deliberately go out looking for that kind of experience.
Did you win more souls for God and the Church because of the miracles?
I would say yes. From the December 1985 meeting, that month alone, we had over 26,000 people giving their lives to the Lord. Of the 26,000, quite a large number joined Deeper Life. Others went to other CChurches.
Alan Isaacson writes in his book that your "style of worshipping is probably more Westernized than the average independent Church". Is that right?
I would think so, because you don't find too much emotionalism in our services.
Isaacson also says that ''you are most influenced by Western Evangelical! Pentecostal holiness tradition and perhaps too careful of being too African in worship and practice". What do you say?
Yes, that is true, but though we have been influenced by the Western approach, when you go into the Bible, you don't find too much of the emotionalism and the other things common with the African CChurches. At Deeper Life, we tend to look at the word of God to learn how to worship, how to sing, and the purpose of what we are doing?
Apart from the emotionalism, is there anything in the African CChurches' way of worship that does not appeal to you?
You see, as a mathematician, I prefer a situation where if you are talking to me, I can reason, where I can sit back and say "that's logical, that's right". But when you are really hyper-emotional, you don't think about the contents of what you are receiving, and you can easily be deceived, you can even be led into hypnotism if you are not careful. Once emotion is too heavy, the people don't reason or think about what they do. But, as you have seen in our Church, the way we preach, you can reason through everything and it is not easy to deceive people because of that logical sequence of what we are doing.
Isaacson again writes that when he attended Deeper Life services in 1988, he found "the music was fairly Western in style... the music was good but not very African", he says. Over the past four weeks, I have observed the same thing. What is the rationale behind it? Why don't we see real African gospel music during your services?
Well, we have different types of music. At our Sunday Worship Service, we have a style of music which you and Isaacson would term "Western". At our crusades and other meetings, we have another style which, again you and Isaacson would call "African". Even at the Monday Bible Study, there is clapping of hands and Mricantype music. So it depends on the type of service.
Isaacson also says that in the early days of the Church, you were "anxious to see uniformity of teaching throughout Deeper Life". How far has this succeeded?
By and large, I would think yes, we have succeeded in achieving uniformity of teaching across the Church. Our Monday Bible Study also unites us and solidifies the teaching. The Monday Bible study is very important to the work we are doing, because it is transmitted live allover the world, by satellite and internet.
I have
been told by the Ghana National Overseer that in the early days you sold
your car to support the Church in Ghana to stand on its feet.
(Laughs) I didn't think he would remember that. It is a long time ago. The Ghana Church has since grown big to become our second largest congregation in the world, after Nigeria . And because of the sacrifices I made in those early days, our pastors and other workers also followed suit and made sacrifices for the work to grow. You know, sometimes when a leader does something, and even without compelling others to follow suit, they just do it. That is what happened to Deeper Life. Our pastors and members lived sacrificial lives and gave generously.
(Laughs) I didn't think he would remember that. It is a long time ago. The Ghana Church has since grown big to become our second largest congregation in the world, after Nigeria . And because of the sacrifices I made in those early days, our pastors and other workers also followed suit and made sacrifices for the work to grow. You know, sometimes when a leader does something, and even without compelling others to follow suit, they just do it. That is what happened to Deeper Life. Our pastors and members lived sacrificial lives and gave generously.
That is why in
our Church we don't browbeat people to pay money. "Do this, do that."
No, we. are not into that. On Sundays, for example, we take just one
offering, and within 10 minutes that large crowd had finished giving
their offering. They give whatever they can. We don't force them by
harping on about paying more money. And yet we are doing all these
projects you've seen on your rounds, because the people themselves make
sacrifices willingly.
Let's
talk about the Women's Ministry. I know you are blessed with a wife who
is so prominent in the Women's Ministry and helping the Church grow. But
while some CChurches have women pastors, even prophetesses, Deeper Life
has none. Why?
Well, our understanding is that it is not the name or the title that matters but the ministry and the work they are doing. If you look at the population of any country, especially here in Africa , sometimes you could have 50% male, 50% female, sometimes the women could be a little bit more. So there are certain needs of women that men cannot minister to directly. Therefore, in the Church we have established the Women's Ministry and they evangelise, they have programmes, they preach, they have their own magazine, they do quite a lot. And yet, when it comes to general meetings where men and women are present, the men lead the meetings. But, generally, the women do quite a lot - in the universities, in the communities, etc. So their hands are really full.
Well, our understanding is that it is not the name or the title that matters but the ministry and the work they are doing. If you look at the population of any country, especially here in Africa , sometimes you could have 50% male, 50% female, sometimes the women could be a little bit more. So there are certain needs of women that men cannot minister to directly. Therefore, in the Church we have established the Women's Ministry and they evangelise, they have programmes, they preach, they have their own magazine, they do quite a lot. And yet, when it comes to general meetings where men and women are present, the men lead the meetings. But, generally, the women do quite a lot - in the universities, in the communities, etc. So their hands are really full.
So why can't we call your wife and the other women leaders' pastors like we call the men?
Because we reserve the title pastor for people who are in charge of the whole local Church, whereas a woman would be in charge of only the women's section within that Church, which is not the whole Church.
Because we reserve the title pastor for people who are in charge of the whole local Church, whereas a woman would be in charge of only the women's section within that Church, which is not the whole Church.
Isaacson
wrote in 1988: "The Church is one which preaches the power of prayer,
they could not be accused of preaching a 'success' or 'prosperity
gospel' like so many groups which take scripture to mean God will give
material prosperity to his most faithful followers." And I am saying,
why not? Why won't God give material prosperity to his most faithful
followers?
We believe actually in prosperity, we believe in success, we believe in everyone - by the grace of God - reaching their highest potential. We preach it and live it, and the Lord has really blessed us. The only thing is that we balance it. We say money is not the whole thing about success. The way other people define prosperity and success is different from the way we see it.
We believe actually in prosperity, we believe in success, we believe in everyone - by the grace of God - reaching their highest potential. We preach it and live it, and the Lord has really blessed us. The only thing is that we balance it. We say money is not the whole thing about success. The way other people define prosperity and success is different from the way we see it.
I take success
as the achievement of God's goal and plan for each of His children in
life. And that will not be measured by how much money you have. Yes,
money is involved but money is not the whole thing. If somebody has
money but doesn't have a fulfilled life or hasn't achieved the divinely
set goals or a happy family and a healthy lifestyle, that's not success.
Success is a composite kind of thing.
The same goes
for prosperity. The needs of an ordinary person will be different from
the needs of a government official. The ordinary person may be able to
meet all his needs and even have a surplus to help his neighbours. The
government official, with a much better financial strength, may likewise
be able to meet his needs and help his neighbours. To me, though their
financial strengths may be different, they are both prosperous. So
prosperity is relative.
As a Church, we
don't put too much emphasis on prosperity because we know there is a
thin line between prosperity and covetousness. We don't want people to
be aiming at prosperity for its own sake - "I must grab this, get this,
get that" - which will be all that they live for. But the Bible says
"seek ye first the kingdom of God and its righteousness and all things
shall be added unto you".
Isaacson
again writes that "the decision of Pastor Kumuyi and his followers to
be thoroughly Christian and uncompromised with the world may, on
reflection, have led them into a legalism which is excessive". What do
you say?
Well, again, because he is writing from his own perspective, when you say "legalism" it depends on what a person would call legalism. For example, in those earlier years, when we taught that if you were a Christian you wouldn't smoke and drink, people accused us of being legalistic. It was years later that governments in the world decreed that health warnings be written on every packet of cigarette - "smoking kills". We had been saying it long before it dawned on these governments. At the time people said we were legalistic. But some of the things that were labelled, and are still labelled, as legalistic, we don't label them so. It's a matter of language.
Well, again, because he is writing from his own perspective, when you say "legalism" it depends on what a person would call legalism. For example, in those earlier years, when we taught that if you were a Christian you wouldn't smoke and drink, people accused us of being legalistic. It was years later that governments in the world decreed that health warnings be written on every packet of cigarette - "smoking kills". We had been saying it long before it dawned on these governments. At the time people said we were legalistic. But some of the things that were labelled, and are still labelled, as legalistic, we don't label them so. It's a matter of language.
For example, if
you look at the dietary laws, let's say on sugar, cholesterol, eggs,
etc, if these laws were not there and you preached it and said "this is
the composition of the body, if you take too much sugar, this is what
will happen, so limit your intake of sugar", some people would say that
is legalistic. But today a lot of these things are not legalistic simply
because they are coming from the scientific community. If it comes from
the Church, it is legalistic.
I
take success as the achievement of God's goal and plan for each of His
children in life. And that will not be measured by how much money you
have.
Yes, money is involved but money is not the whole thing. If somebody has money but doesn't have a fulfilled life or hasn't achieved the divinely set goals or a happy family and a healthy lifestyle, that's not success. Success is a composite kind of thing. |
 |
Talking
about the Christian life, I find that timekeeping is so important to
Deeper Life. Isaacson also writes that "falsifying accounts is even
worse (the Church teaches against going to work at Sam and writing that
you got there at 7.30am). To the Church, that is lying, and a Christian
shouldn't lie”
Of course, that is what we have taught our members over the years. We want to he as faithful as the Lord instructs us to do it. We might be sparing in making promises, but once we make it, we want to stand by our word. If we say we meet at 5am, we met at 5am, not 5.10am.
Of course, that is what we have taught our members over the years. We want to he as faithful as the Lord instructs us to do it. We might be sparing in making promises, but once we make it, we want to stand by our word. If we say we meet at 5am, we met at 5am, not 5.10am.
Does
the Church follow up on the people who receive healing and deliverance
at your crusades and prayer meetings, to ensure that their ailments had
not returned?
Yes, we do serious follow-up. Perhaps we do more than other CChurches. If you noticed, during the crusade in Accra , Ghana , people who had had healing and deliverance the previous year, came and gave testimonies about their healing. Their ailments and problems had not returned.
Yes, we do serious follow-up. Perhaps we do more than other CChurches. If you noticed, during the crusade in Accra , Ghana , people who had had healing and deliverance the previous year, came and gave testimonies about their healing. Their ailments and problems had not returned.
Isaacson
says, and I find it quite complimentary: "It seems it is in the caring
that much of the life and strength of Deeper Life Church occurs -
practical everyday caring for every member." What does this caring
entail?
For example, we gather in small units or cell groups in the various localities. This is where the needs of individual members are known and attended to. Say, if someone needs a job or accommodation, or has just had a baby and does not have enough money to care for the baby, members of the cell groups rally round and provide care for one another.
For example, we gather in small units or cell groups in the various localities. This is where the needs of individual members are known and attended to. Say, if someone needs a job or accommodation, or has just had a baby and does not have enough money to care for the baby, members of the cell groups rally round and provide care for one another.
Reading
Isaacson's book, perhaps the severest criticism he has for Deeper Life
is when he writes: "The newer, more indigenous, independent CChurches
offer freshness and a distinctively African style of
worship. Deeper Life, so far, have not been able to offer their
adherents these different qualities." Do you agree?
It depends on what he is referring to as "African qualities" or ingredients, and to what purpose are they there. What are we missing? I do get invitations from other CChurches to come and worship with them. Let's say they start at 9am and finish at 2pm- five hours. They do dancing and drumming and many other things, including offerings, and devote just 30 minutes to teaching. If the educational system in Africa were like that, where much of the time were spent on relaxation, music, emotional hype or whatever, would we be happy? Why do we think that because it is religion we should have the liberty to waste people's time? So I don't really know what Isaacson means, and what flavour he thinks we should put into our Church to make it peculiarly "African".
It depends on what he is referring to as "African qualities" or ingredients, and to what purpose are they there. What are we missing? I do get invitations from other CChurches to come and worship with them. Let's say they start at 9am and finish at 2pm- five hours. They do dancing and drumming and many other things, including offerings, and devote just 30 minutes to teaching. If the educational system in Africa were like that, where much of the time were spent on relaxation, music, emotional hype or whatever, would we be happy? Why do we think that because it is religion we should have the liberty to waste people's time? So I don't really know what Isaacson means, and what flavour he thinks we should put into our Church to make it peculiarly "African".
One
thing that has troubled me over the past four weeks as I have followed
you from London to Lome , Freetown and Lagos (and our trips to Abuja and
Port Harcourt ) is what happens to the Church after Pastor Kumuyi is
gone, especially when your members hold you in such
high esteem and everything appears to revolve around you. Can anybody
fill your boots? Are you thinking about, or made arrangements for,
succession?
Normally, when a pioneer begins something, everything virtually revolves around him. When you think that I started in 1973 with 15 people, it means that I have basically influenced the lives of virtually all the members since we began, and I am still active, it's not like I am tired and weak, they are doing it and I am doing it along with them, which is good for the Church because I am still imparting the experience, learning and teaching I have accrued over the years to people.
Normally, when a pioneer begins something, everything virtually revolves around him. When you think that I started in 1973 with 15 people, it means that I have basically influenced the lives of virtually all the members since we began, and I am still active, it's not like I am tired and weak, they are doing it and I am doing it along with them, which is good for the Church because I am still imparting the experience, learning and teaching I have accrued over the years to people.
Yes there is no
success without successors, people say without a successor but I prefer
to say successors. At this stage, what I want to see is to implant
myself in the lives of not just one person, but the lives of the cream
of our leadership. The Lord will work out whoever eventually becomes my
successor. If you were to attend our congress in January next year and
you listen to other people preach, you would be surprised to see the
quality and calibre of leaders we have.
But there will be just one General Superintendent after you are gone.
Yes there will be only one, but the point is that in Deeper Life we do have a united voice. If I were to say that so and so is the General Superintendent after I leave, the way Deeper Life is I think it will stand. And even if I were not there, things would still go on. That's the way the Lord has built us, and a successor will eventually come out naturally. Yes, there might be a few dissenting voices who say "why him, why not me?", that is human nature, but those people would not carry weight considering the way Deeper Life is.
Yes there will be only one, but the point is that in Deeper Life we do have a united voice. If I were to say that so and so is the General Superintendent after I leave, the way Deeper Life is I think it will stand. And even if I were not there, things would still go on. That's the way the Lord has built us, and a successor will eventually come out naturally. Yes, there might be a few dissenting voices who say "why him, why not me?", that is human nature, but those people would not carry weight considering the way Deeper Life is.
